Second Draft

Preparing to revise my third novel, the first in a multi-part epic fantasy series.  It's tentatively titled "Sandman," for reasons obvious to the story. It took 9 months to write the first draft, and although I knew where it needed to go, I never really ended it completely.  I got most of the way there and burned out. I struggled for six weeks to write something and finally decided I'd do better to set it aside and then come back to it. There are a number of things I had already made a list of which needed to be addressed in the next draft and I really believe clarity on how to write the ending will come as I work those into the manuscript, so here I am.

I don't know how others approach their revisions. For every writer, the approach tends to differ, so I can only write about my own process. In first drafts, I try and get the scenic structure, characters and plotlines down. I focus on the key conflicts and personalities and less on full character arcs and detailed descriptions. Some might call it a skeletal approach, but what I end up with is often a lot of stuff I can use but which needs editing to cut excess and then thickening to fill in the meat on the bones. I also make a lot of notes as I go about things I need to foreshadow, flesh out, etc. For example, as with "The Worker Prince," I reached a point in the first draft of "Sandman" where I needed something to happen which I had not set up in the parameters of my world building. Rather than stop and go back, I just made it happen and made a note that I will need to set that up earlier to make it plausible for readers.  I also found character traits which I want to emphasize throughout and need to go back and add in. Character relationships developed which can be mined for humor and also character growth, but I need to set that up, too.  The biggest development was finally sorting out what secret there is about a central character everyone is fighting over. Now I have to go back and foreshadow the reveal earlier and revise scenes knowing many of the characters already have that knowledge and it will underscore their actions. Lastly, there are themes/motifs which have come forward as the first draft unfolded which I now need to also thread throughout.

This is a good thing. I know many writers who end their first draft thinking it's crap and embarrassed for all the time they wasted. Me, I feel like I have a really good foundation but know that without the bricks, cement, shingles, glass, paint, etc. it isn't ready to open. Those things can be added. And I won't have to start from scratch. I'll probably add a scene or two in various places. I may cut one or cut it down or take sections of it for elsewhere. But I have stuff I can move around, which is much easier for me to deal with than the initial blank page.

I also have research to do. I have a book called "English Through The Ages" which I will use to revise my prose to reflect the time period in which the book is set. It's set on a colonized planet where the people live in medieval type times, so I don't have to be 100% accurate but realistic enough to their Earth ancestry as I can manage. I will be working in some other research I've done on magic, dwarves, and things like wagons and cities to make it more realistic and alive.  This is the fun stuff though. Much easier to deal with when the basic structure is already there, and, despite the ending issues, the structure is there. Somewhere in this process I'll also be sorting out where the story goes from here in the next book so I can set that up well, too. I have a rough idea, but I need to rough that out more, too.

I expect the second draft won't take as long as the first. Anywhere from 2 to 5 months I'd expect. So from now until April, this will be my world. I have other projects waiting in the wings though as well, so if I have off days, I can work on those. After all, with "Worker Prince" coming out mid-2011, I do have a sequel to write for that. In any case, I'm excited about this book because it's not based on another story, as "Worker Prince" was. It's totally from my own mind, so it's my first fully original speculative fiction book. It's also my first fantasy. So that's good career progress as well. Now, I just need to get this thing in shape for the betas.

Second draft. Beta readers. Third draft. Then out to querying agents. That'll be the process.  Maybe this will break me into the mass house world. Either way, it's good to have something positive to focus on which helps my career progress forward.

For what it's worth...

New Feature: Links Of The Week

I tweet a lot of links and such as I come across worthwhile stuff throughout the week. I've decided to start listing the best of them here so that those who don't use Twitter or don't keep up with all the links have a chance to track them down later.  I hope you enjoy this.  Links are listed followed by a brief description. Where they relate to posts on this blog, it's noted.  Enjoy!

http://theinvisiblegorilla.com/blog/2010/12/24/dont-change-your-worldview-based-on-one-study/ -- interesting examination of the importance of not taking scientific studies at face value.

http://tonymorganlive.com/2010/12/24/9-in-2010-ladies-how-to-welcome-a-man-home/ -- the way any man would want to be welcomed, ladies.

http://locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/TableT13.html -- Locus magazine's updated list of most award winning and losing Science Fiction and Fantasy writers.


http://bit.ly/eEytl4 -- reviewer Paul Goat Allen's annual Barnes & Noble list of Year's Best Fantasy for 2010. Features books by several friends and others, several of which are reviewed on this blog. [See them under the hastag 'Review']


http://bit.ly/hNbUwO -- Paul Goat Allen's Best Steampunk of 2010 list from Barnes & Noble's site. Again, relevant book reviews may be viewed on this blog.


http://jakebible.com/2010/12/28/growing-up-fundamentalist-pagan/ -- interesting article on growing up fundamentalist...pagan. Examines how such strong beliefs effect a writer's work.


http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2010/12/photographs-of-the-worlds-first-aircraft-carrier-resurface/68567/ -- unearthed lost photos of the first aircraft carrier. Fascinating for history and aviation buffs.

What I Want For Christmas This Year

It's been a tough year. Those who have followed along on the blog or Twitter or Facebook (or all three) will expect they know the answer to this, but actually, as much as I want a job, what I want more is something far more important and meaningful to a happy life.  What I want for Christmas this year is a world where people of any worldview can live the way they believe and express that when they feel necessary without being discriminated against by those who disagree.

I am no Einstein, but I am well educated and I test smart, so I assume I'm not stupid. (If you disagree, so be it). I have spent a lot of years studying, questioning, probing, and coming by my worldview. I am proud of who I am, and, as most of you know, when necessary, I speak out about it. Most of the time I keep it to myself with the exception of election time and when people say bigoted things villifying people like me for our beliefs. That makes me mad, and I speak up. For one, you cannot preach tolerance if you are not practicing it yourself. That's called being a hypocrite and the actions negate the words. Second, if you really believe in freedom, you have to grant others the same freedom you demand for yourself. If you don't, you don't really believe in freedom. Villifying those with whom you disagree is being a bigot. It is discrimination. And it is definitely not tolerance.

I have found myself speaking out a lot more this year. Time and time again people I love and respect, or people I just admire, have made statements villifying Christians as racist or bigoted or ignorant or insane. I'm a Christian. I take offense. Time and again Republicans have been called similar things. I'm a Republican.  I take offense. More than that, as an artist, I am very emotional.  I feel things very deeply.  The words you hurl at me hurt.

I am conservative. I came by my beliefs honestly. I used to be a registered Democrat. I even voted in a Dem president. I am a Christian. I went through a period where I might not have acted like it. But I have come back to embrace those beliefs.

But I am also an individual. I think for myself. I do not buy what pundits sell without investigating, questioning, and examining it myself. And I do not vote the party line. I vote issues.

Since there are extremists in most belief systems, you do find extremist Christians and extremist Republicans. But those are not me. Please do not equate me with them. When you call them insane, racist, bigoted, and ignorant without specifying, you are including me. I don't appreciate it.

So what I'd like for Christmas is people I love and respect, whom I always try and treat with love and respect, to recognize that my worldview is valid for me, even if they don't share it, by stopping the hate, speaking out against the hate their fellow believers spread against people like me, and instead recognizing what we do have in common. We all have value. And we all have a lot more in common than different. Can we not celebrate that in 2011 instead of our differences?

That's what I want. I probably won't get it. But I hope those who took the time to read this will at least try.

For what it's worth...

A Merry and Blessed Christmas to you all.  May you get what you want (as long as it's not the extermination of all people like me).

Transcript: Character Studies v. Plot Driven Stories

An interesting random Twitter chat, otherwise called a chitter, sprang up today on character studies v. plot driven stories.  Here's the transcript of that portion:

6:10 pm	shadowflame1974:	So what is the difference between a character study and a short story? Lacks plot and devolopment? #rdmwrtdisc
6:11 pm	cryssfox:	@shadowflame1974 one you'd like to publish and one you'd cringe if someone actually read it. #rdmwrtdisc
6:12 pm	shadowflame1974:	@cryssfox lol (I tend to do a lot of character studies I guess ;) ) #rdmwrtdisc
6:12 pm	inkgorilla:	i find a character study ends up being exploration of motives, setting, personality w/ just a veneer of plot... #rdmwrtdisc
6:13 pm	NateCrowder:	@shadowflame1974 Pretty much. Unless the char. or setting is exciting enough to BE the story, it needs a plot. At least for me. #rdmwrtdisc
6:13 pm	cryssfox:	@shadowflame1974 I do some character studies that are almost fan fictiony-I put my characters in known settings. #rdmwrtdisc
6:13 pm	inkgorilla:	...it's true that if it's good enough, that may be enough for a short story. but sometimes it's just enough to get ideas #rdmwrtdisc
6:13 pm	shadowflame1974:	But character studies are useful. gives you a glimpse of who and what the MC is #rdmwrtdisc
6:14 pm	cryssfox:	@shadowflame1974 Absolutely. #rdmwrtdisc
6:14 pm	inkgorilla:	@shadowflame1974 exactly. #rdmwrtdisc
6:15 pm	NateCrowder:	I don't want to dismiss character studies. If nothing else, it's good development work for a later story. Like practicing scales #rdmwrtdisc
6:16 pm	inkgorilla:	@NateCrowder i like that.. scales. #rdmwrtdisc
6:16 pm	shadowflame1974:	do you think that writers should practice character studies? Like for each MC do one or should it just happen? #rdmwrtdisc
6:17 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 I rarely do a separate character study. Because I write by letting my story unfold, it doesn't work well. #rdmwrtdisc
6:17 pm	cryssfox:	@shadowflame1974 It really helps if you feel you don't know your characters well enough. #rdmwrtdisc
6:17 pm	cryssfox:	@shadowflame1974 Ive done plenty of prewriting on characters as well. Either can work. It's all about what you need as an author #rdmwrtdisc
6:18 pm	shadowflame1974:	@David_JWest no not talking about slush just a random discussion if you'd like to join in #rdmwrtdisc
6:18 pm	inkgorilla:	i don't set out necessarily to do a study. sometimes just happens that way #rdmwrtdisc
6:19 pm	sandrawickham:	@shadowflame1974 On my iPod touch so gonna be behind a lot methinks. I might just have to lurk. :p #rdmwrtdisc
6:19 pm	NateCrowder:	@inkgorilla same here. And practice showing motivation and description is good practice, even if you never use that character. #rdmwrtdisc
6:19 pm	shadowflame1974:	@sandrawickham no worries I'll save the discussion and put it on my blog for later :D #rdmwrtdisc
6:20 pm	shadowflame1974:	@NateCrowder @inkgorilla but if you do one, do you feel more confidant of the characters? #rdmwrtdisc
6:21 pm	sandrawickham:	@inkgorilla: Short stories I don't do official character studies, for novels I do. Probably not enough so I do more with drafts #rdmwrtdisc
6:22 pm	BryanThomasS:	@sandrawickham Like me. I go back before a 2nd draft and compile character studies then flesh them out so I can deepen the arcs #rdmwrtdisc
6:22 pm	NateCrowder:	@shadowflame1974 @inkgorilla #rdmwrtdisc sometimes yes. And sometimes I realize that character doesn't fit in what I was planning to write.
6:23 pm	shadowflame1974:	@BryanThomasS @sandrawickham Interesting that you go back and fill in the gaps so to speak with the chars. #rdmwrtdisc
6:23 pm	BryanThomasS:	Do you guys have a specific set of data or questions you ask yourselves about characters or does it vary? #rdmwrtdisc
6:23 pm	SheikYurbouti:	Can i get a definition of character study? #rdmwrtdisc
6:23 pm	shadowflame1974:	@NateCrowder if he doesn't fit,do you save it for later or adjust the character? #rdmwrtdisc
6:23 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 A lot of that is because, like the story, the characters kind of come alive in context and I need the story #rdmwrtdisc
6:23 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 to unfold first. #rdmwrtdisc
6:24 pm	SheikYurbouti:	I'm picturing reams of prose on physical attributes, motives, history, etc. #rdmwrtdisc
6:24 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 But I do the same thing with motifs and theme as well as filling out the plot, closing holes, etc. #rdmwrtdisc
6:24 pm	cryssfox:	@SheikYurbouti For me I put a character in a known fictional realm and see what happens to them. #rdmwrtdisc
6:24 pm	shadowflame1974:	@SheikYurbouti I think a character study is more of an essay of the character, background, emotions, actions. not always a story #rdmwrtdisc
6:24 pm	KnightChills:	@shadowflame1974 I've been writing 10 years but more into it the last 3 years. I only outline for longer works.#rdmwrtdisc
6:24 pm	inkgorilla:	well, yeah, when you do a study you get a rough highlight of the attributes of the char, which can make it easier.. #rdmwrtdisc
6:25 pm	NateCrowder:	@shadowflame1974 if I can't use them in that piece, they get added to a file of characters waiting for the right story. #rdmwrtdisc
6:25 pm	inkgorilla:	though sometimes I just play "20 Questions" with the char (i have a list) and go from there. #rdmwrtdisc
6:25 pm	sandrawickham:	@shadowflame1974: @BryanThomasS By the second draft I know better who they are and/or who I need them to be. #rdmwrtdisc
6:25 pm	Rshunter88:	@shadowflame1974 I make lists and charts about the characters, but don't write out scenes that aren't in the novel. #rdmwrtdisc
6:25 pm	Wulfie_:	@BryanThomasS I do mine like a background check &then resume and brief bio. That way they tell me how they'll act in situations #rdmwrtdisc
6:25 pm	cryssfox:	@SheikYurbouti I consider character studies to me like getting to know a character. For me its organic. #rdmwrtdisc
6:26 pm	shadowflame1974:	@BryanThomasS so really your first draft to see where you need to improve. you use the skeleton method kinda. ;) #rdmwrtdisc
6:26 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 Yeah. Lots of dialogue. The scenes and basic description. I add all the flowery stuff and meat in 2nd draft #rdmwrtdisc
6:27 pm	NateCrowder:	#rdmwrtdisc my character studies are usually snapshots of that person in space, a random scene and dialogue go get the cut of their jib.
6:28 pm	shadowflame1974:	do any of you do and RP with someone else to learn more about the character? #rdmwrtdisc
6:28 pm	NateCrowder:	#rdmwrtdisc and for novels, I just do a paragraph with motivation and a few descriptive notes for all major characters.
6:28 pm	BryanThomasS:	@sandrawickham Exactly #rdmwrtdisc
6:29 pm	Wulfie_:	@shadowflame1974 I do. I also use the empty chair method where 'we' talk. lol #rdmwrtdisc
6:29 pm	shadowflame1974:	wow bungled that. Do any of you RP with someone else to develop a character? #rdmwrtdisc
6:29 pm	sandrawickham:	@BryanThomasS: I'm the same way! A "putter-inner." I'm learning to do more character building before starting though. #rdmwrtdisc
6:29 pm	cryssfox:	@shadowflame1974 No but I used to suggest that technique to my students. #rdmwrtdisc
6:29 pm	NateCrowder:	@shadowflame1974 #rdmwrtdisc No, but several characters have come from and gone to actual RPG's. ;)
6:30 pm	BryanThomasS:	@sandrawickham I'm finding that in my 2nd novel in a series, I have to do a lot more, especially outlining scenes & plot. #rdmwrtdisc
6:30 pm	BryanThomasS:	@sandrawickham And character details come out through that. #rdmwrtdisc
6:30 pm	pfallerj:	@shadowflame1974 Paragraphs. I do a little mini-synopsis of each scene, so I can get emotions, plot and character development. #rdmwrtdisc
6:30 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 For ex, in my epic fantasy, I found that two characters had great banter so I am going back in to add more #rdmwrtdisc
6:31 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 and emphasize the comedy. But also working on the motivations behind that. #rdmwrtdisc
6:31 pm	shadowflame1974:	@pfallerj do you find that helps you in character development? #rdmwrtdisc
6:31 pm	Wulfie_:	Longer pieces need more char development but shorts, not so much, no room 4 it, more action oriented. #rdmwrtdisc
6:32 pm	BryanThomasS:	@Wulfie_ Character comes out through those actions very much. #rdmwrtdisc
6:32 pm	Wulfie_:	It probably depends on whether the writer/story is character driven or plot driven too. char driven wd need more work there. #rdmwrtdisc
6:33 pm	sandrawickham:	@shadowflame1974: Re: RP, I got to interview my friend (under cover narcotics officer) and she has inspired character traits. #rdmwrtdisc
6:33 pm	cryssfox:	@Wulfie_ Absolutely. I tend to write character pieces and so find myself doing character work even for 300-1000 word shorts. #rdmwrtdisc
6:34 pm	shadowflame1974:	In your opinion which is harder, a character driven or plot driven short story? #rdmwrtdisc
6:34 pm	Wulfie_:	It also relates to how story comes to you, if idea starts w/a char, you'll run w/that. if it's scene/action, you'll focus there #rdmwrtdisc
6:34 pm	BryanThomasS:	@cryssfox My stuff's character driven, too. I am a lot more interest in characters than any science or other details. #rdmwrtdisc
6:35 pm	inkhaven:	@shadowflame1974 I've never really understood the difference. #rdmwrtdisc
6:35 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 They're different things. Character driven focus more on motives with actions & consequences. #rdmwrtdisc
6:35 pm	Wulfie_:	@cryssfox Yeah, same here. I prefer character driven too. #rdmwrtdisc
6:35 pm	cryssfox:	@shadowflame1974 I think it depends on what you like to write. I have trouble writing plot-driven because it doesn't interest me #rdmwrtdisc
6:36 pm	inkhaven:	@shadowflame1974 Character and plot seem so inextricably linked. #rdmwrtdisc
6:36 pm	shadowflame1974:	@inkhaven @BryanThomasS has a good answer on character driven. #rdmwrtdisc
6:36 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 But at the same time you spnd more time with the internal life of the character in character driven. #rdmwrtdisc
6:36 pm	sandrawickham:	@shadowflame1974: For me plot is always harder! (this is a great way to kill time doing cardio, btw! Lol) #rdmwrtdisc
6:37 pm	Wulfie_:	@inkhaven characters move the story in one, external circumstances move it in the other. Both contain bits of ea. other tho. #rdmwrtdisc
6:37 pm	shadowflame1974:	I agree they are linked, but I think character driven gets more in the char's head. You have more reason for them to be involved #rdmwrtdisc
6:37 pm	cryssfox:	@sandrawickham (It's also a great way to distract myself while editing informational SEO copy.) #rdmwrtdisc
6:38 pm	NateCrowder:	@shadowflame1974 #rdmwrtdisc I find plot-driven easier to write, but not compelling if I don't find the character hook to connect to.
6:38 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 Thanks. #rdmwrtdisc
6:38 pm	Wulfie_:	@shadowflame1974 right, more personally motivated. Whereas plot driven is more circumstance/externally driven. #rdmwrtdisc
6:38 pm	shadowflame1974:	Plot driven ex: Hero forced into fighting for his country Char driven: Hero WANTS to fight for his country #rdmwrtdisc
6:38 pm	TheTillMonkey:	@NateCrowder @shadowflame1974 often nearer the beginning, but I've had a 'vision' of the ending before I've even started before #rdmwrtdisc
6:39 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 Yes. Exactly. Less about external events than the character's response #rdmwrtdisc
6:39 pm	inkhaven:	@shadowflame1974 Can you give me an example of a plot-driven story I might know? Maybe I just don't read enough of them. #rdmwrtdisc
6:39 pm	Rshunter88:	@Wulfie_ I guess I've never made a distinction. To me a plot's a plot whether I spend time in a char's head or outside it. #rdmwrtdisc
6:40 pm	NateCrowder:	If I'm not interested in the character (as writer OR reader), I'm less interested in how they get from point A to point B. #rdmwrtdisc
6:40 pm	cryssfox:	@inkhaven the davinci code #rdmwrtdisc
6:40 pm	sandrawickham:	@Wulfie_: Yes. Can't have 1 without the other. Character to me seems to be subplot many times vs "the plot" #talkinoutmyarse #rdmwrtdisc
6:40 pm	Wulfie_:	@Rshunter88 Then you use a combo of the two. That works too. #rdmwrtdisc
6:40 pm	inkhaven:	@shadowflame1974 Or maybe I just haven't taken the time to sort them out. Probably be a good exercise for me to do so. #rdmwrtdisc
6:41 pm	Wulfie_:	@sandrawickham Right on! #rdmwrtdisc
6:41 pm	BryanThomasS:	@sandrawickham Can't have one without the other, yes but literary stories do tend to emphasize character over complex plots #rdmwrtdisc
6:41 pm	shadowflame1974:	@inkhaven I do believe I would count LotR more plot driven while The Hobbit would be more character driven #rdmwrtdisc
6:41 pm	cryssfox:	@inkhaven almost any action/adventure or mystery and most mainstream films. Any of Cussler's Dirk Pitt books. #rdmwrtdisc
6:42 pm	shadowflame1974:	RT @cryssfox: @inkhaven the davinci code >> definitely plot driven #rdmwrtdisc
6:42 pm	Wulfie_:	@shadowflame1974 I agree. #rdmwrtdisc
6:42 pm	BryanThomasS:	@inkhaven It's like comparing Star Wars and Huck Finn as coming of age stories. Huck is character, SW is plot. #rdmwrtdisc
6:43 pm	cryssfox:	@shadowflame1974 I'm not sure on LOTR. A lot of the external journey is analogous to Frodo's internal struggle. #rdmwrtdisc
6:44 pm	BryanThomasS:	@inkhaven Except is it more about that character's motives and response to being forced or abt how circmstances control him? #rdmwrtdisc
6:44 pm	TheTillMonkey:	@shadowflame1974 s'pose we're treading on genre vs literary no-man's-land now.... #rdmwrtdisc
6:45 pm	inkgorilla:	Ooo! Plot v Character! #rdmwrtdisc
6:45 pm	shadowflame1974:	@NateCrowder you definitely have to have the right char for a plot driven #rdmwrtdisc
6:45 pm	sandrawickham:	@cryssfox: So, like James Patterson, Tom Clancy type stuff is plot driven, yes? #rdmwrtdisc
6:45 pm	pfallerj:	@shadowflame1974 Definitely. I know who they are at the start, & what they'll end up as. Filling in the middle gets them there. #rdmwrtdisc
6:45 pm	shadowflame1974:	@TheTillMonkey lol well it is random! #rdmwrtdisc
6:45 pm	inkgorilla:	it really is all intertwined, but I think if you have a really compelling character you can get away with thin plot. #rdmwrtdisc
6:45 pm	inkgorilla:	and sometimes if you have a good plot, you can get away with thin characters.... #rdmwrtdisc
6:46 pm	inkhaven:	@shadowflame1974 I guess I've never tried to write a plot-driven story, so I don't know how hard it is! #rdmwrtdisc
6:46 pm	shadowflame1974:	@inkgorilla I agree with both statements! #rdmwrtdisc
6:47 pm	cryssfox:	@sandrawickham Primarily. #rdmwrtdisc
6:47 pm	shadowflame1974:	@inkhaven for me it is a lot harder. #rdmwrtdisc
6:47 pm	BryanThomasS:	@inkgorilla Thin chracters are a hallmark of much SF unfortunately. #rdmwrtdisc
6:48 pm	inkgorilla:	i see LOTR mentioned... is possible that most of it is Plot driven, but Frodo/Sam stuff in Two Towers is more character driven? #rdmwrtdisc
6:48 pm	harrymarkov:	@inkgorilla What is this #rdmwrtdisc ?
6:48 pm	Wulfie_:	@TheTillMonkey No doubt. It does get murky sometimes. lol #rdmwrtdisc
6:48 pm	shadowflame1974:	@BryanThomasS why do you think that is? Is the potential of the future overpowering the characters? #rdmwrtdisc
6:49 pm	shadowflame1974:	@harrymarkov just a random writing discussion ;) #rdmwrtdisc
6:49 pm	cryssfox:	@inkgorilla I would agree with that. #rdmwrtdisc
6:49 pm	inkhaven:	@inkgorilla I think OSC called The Hobbit a "milieu" story, a 3rd catgry. Exploration of world more important than char or plot. #rdmwrtdisc
6:49 pm	inkgorilla:	@harrymarkov random writer discussion. join in! #rdmwrtdisc
6:49 pm	shadowflame1974:	@inkgorilla I agree that most of the story outside of Sam/Frodo is plot driven. #rdmwrtdisc
6:49 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 Well, with hard science, they get so focused and enamored with their science, they often forget the people. #rdmwrtdisc
6:50 pm	harrymarkov:	@shadowflame1974 I love this. How often do you do this #rdmwrtdisc
6:50 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 The same thing can happen with milieu stories and world building. #rdmwrtdisc
6:50 pm	inkgorilla:	@inkhaven ahh, yeah, Middle Earth is certainly as much a char as anyone else #rdmwrtdisc
6:50 pm	cryssfox:	@BryanThomasS @shadowflame1974 And with cautionary they get caught up in their message and lose the characters. #rdmwrtdisc
6:51 pm	Wulfie_:	@inkgorilla Think diff is all the chars are driven by external forces so have no choice but to act & in there is char change #rdmwrtdisc
6:52 pm	sandrawickham:	@inkgorilla: Re:LOTR I think of that as ex. of main plot vs subplots. (character subplots) #rdmwrtdisc
6:52 pm	Wulfie_:	@inkgorilla @harrymarkov Oh is that what it stands for? lol Well, it's cool. #rdmwrtdisc
6:52 pm	shadowflame1974:	@harrymarkov it is the first one >.< #rdmwrtdisc
6:53 pm	inkgorilla:	@Wulfie_ yeah motive is certainly ext, tho the distinct in F/S is that we *really* examine their response vs other chars in LOTR #rdmwrtdisc
6:53 pm	sandrawickham:	@Wulfie_ @inkgorilla Nice! #rdmwrtdisc
6:53 pm	BryanThomasS:	RT @TheTillMonkey: and what << BTS said! Scifi/fantasy/crime etc focus more on surroundings and details b/c the story arc is... #rdmwrtdisc
6:53 pm	BryanThomasS:	RT @TheTillMonkey: often more defined. Delving into characters' thoughts beyond important plot points is secondary.#rdmwrtdisc
6:54 pm	Wulfie_:	S. King's work is a good example of mostly character driven stories. #rdmwrtdisc
6:55 pm	shadowflame1974:	@sandrawickham but is the main plot destroying the ring or discovering the inner self (Frodo/Sam)? #rdmwrtdisc
6:55 pm	BryanThomasS:	@inkgorilla Some of the characters in LOTR are richly developed but a lot are not so much. It varies. #rdmwrtdisc
6:55 pm	sandrawickham:	@shadowflame1974: Cardio done! :) Will check in again in a bit, see if you fine peeps are still chatting. #rdmwrtdisc
6:55 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 The main plot is the world being threatened. The character responses are subplots, I think #rdmwrtdisc
6:56 pm	harrymarkov:	@Wulfie_ I love Carrie as a perfect example of characterization and transformation of a MC #rdmwrtdisc [okay I love telekinetics too]
6:56 pm	shadowflame1974:	@BryanThomasS but can you imagine how long those books would be if they are all fully developed? lol #rdmwrtdisc
6:56 pm	cryssfox:	@shadowflame1974 @sandrawickham Grappling with evil in both the external and the internal world. #rdmwrtdisc
6:56 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 Oh, of course. Not a criticism, merely an observation. #rdmwrtdisc
6:57 pm	shadowflame1974:	@BryanThomasS lol #rdmwrtdisc
6:58 pm	shadowflame1974:	...cont: often more defined. Delving into characters' thoughts beyond important plot points is secondary. #rdmwrtdisc
6:59 pm	shadowflame1974:	BTS said! Scifi/fantasy/crime etc focus more on surroundings and details b/c the story arc is... #rdmwrtdisc
6:59 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 LOL We both added that to the feed #rdmwrtdisc
6:59 pm	shadowflame1974:	TRs from @TheTillMonkey #rdmwrtdisc
7:00 pm	shadowflame1974:	no worries #rdmwrtdisc
7:00 pm	Rshunter88:	I'd want to go inside char's head more in SF/F/Crime etc. because it adds more "reality" to the already fantastical world. #rdmwrtdisc
7:01 pm	shadowflame1974:	I often find it amazing how other writers "work" no one way is right for all #rdmwrtdisc
7:01 pm	BryanThomasS:	@Rshunter88 I'm the same way. Characters are what hook me. #rdmwrtdisc
7:02 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 That's why critiques can drive you nuts because all the opinions collide. #rdmwrtdisc
7:02 pm	shadowflame1974:	It depends on the book. If a character is well written, but the plot is soggy, I'm not going to be happy with it. #rdmwrtdisc
7:03 pm	inkgorilla:	yeah, every writer and every reader has different ideas about what "works" -- and it changes for me dep. on my mood :) #rdmwrtdisc
7:04 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 Well definitely you need a plot of some kind. But I shy away from hard science in favor of character & plot. #rdmwrtdisc
7:04 pm	BryanThomasS:	@shadowflame1974 with an emphasis on the character's motivations, inner life, etc. how did they get here? why did they do that? #rdmwrtdisc